S1E17 - We're all back! Wait... no...

Around the bed, so I step on.

It when I. Oh, good.

In the morning or something.

Yeah, that's great.

And sometimes they're really nice about it and they throw up under the bed so I don't notice mud. But, yeah, now it is deterring me.

From getting cats every moment.

I. I have. It's really just one cat, and he is 17 years old.

Well, then he's allowed.

Yes. That's why I'm not mad. I'm not mad at all.

Yeah, that's. That's. That's the privilege of. Just do whatever they want.

Yes. We've had many, many wonderful years with this cat. And he's awesome and grouchy and the Maine coon.

So he's very sweet.

Oh, yeah. Big boy. Yeah. Okay, well, I guess we'll go ahead and get started. Welcome to behind the Locked Doors, a productivity hack that we discovered to make us work on our projects by being accountable to each other and in the form of podcast. I am Scott Paladin. I am writing a horny werewolf audio drama called It Takes a Wolf.

I'm Sam Stark. I am writing as in the spinoff to Unspeakable Distance.

I'm Jack. Hi. I'm here this time. I'm also working on as in West.

Yeah, we have the.

We have the whole crew back.

Because at this point, it's been like, I think there were three things on the feed that were only two of us. We have to figure out how I can get you guys to record without me at this point.

No, we like having you here.

Also, my interiority. Interiority was like, sam, you and I should just do an episode with.

Feel free. I need to feel free. In theory, I should be able to, like, hand you guys some way to record through Riverside, but if you also just did independent and handed me a audio files, I can also just turn that into an episode too.

I could even always hear, though, Scott, when. You're very reliable.

Yeah, well, yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

It's because I got nothing else going on. I'm sad. I could even. The thing is, I've got the team plan on our host, so if somebody else wanted to even edit, you could just put shit on the feed if I wanted. If I just gave you an invite. Remind somebody. Remind me to send one of y'all.

Send it to Sam. I ain't Ed and shit.

Yeah. Okay, well, let's do our check in. Um, so let's start with. Let's start with Jack. How are you doing?

Uh, well, I still haven't Found my cups and mugs. But other than that, we're. We're unpacking very slowly. Me and my wife both work like, you know, full time or more with the three jobs that I work. So it's just like whenever you have a spare minute, you unpack a box. And that just means. Means there is stuff that is still in boxes and probably will be for a while. But I did set up this little folding table in the closet in the spare room and draped blankets everywhere. So that was my productive thing I did last weekend. I was in this closet for almost five hours last weekend between. Between being in calls with both of you separately.

Yep.

Um, but we talked. Me and Sam talked with each other about as class, so that was productive.

Okay, good, good, good.

Yes.

Um, Sam, how are you doing?

Good. Um, besides the cat throw up. Yeah, I'm tired. I have lots of stuff to do. I had four callbacks.

Wow.

Congrats. That was. That was crazy. Um, and. Oh, I have another one tomorrow. Yeah. But, yeah, we did.

We.

We got together last weekend, Jack and me, and Interiority, actually, and we talked about just kind of basic, real over overarching things.

Trying to figure out your, like, how you're gonna establish the, like. Yeah. Opening. Right.

Yeah. Interiority, like, unlocked your brain, like your fucking third eye.

Oh, yeah, that happened.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was pretty great. I. I kind of wish that I recorded it so, like, right here? Yeah, right here. You could insert me. Just be like Sam's whole brain realizing all of a sudden. Yeah, yeah, we. We just basically talked about the beginning and the whole. The whole thing. I talked about it before. I don't want to come into Azen west and make everybody who has already listened to Unspeakable Distance have to listen to a big, huge info dump at the beginning. And I don't want new listeners to have to listen to a big info dump to know what's going on. And so I was like, hey, you know, there are, you know, basically every story out there, there is backstory. So we could just, like, put it in, like. It's regular backstory.

Wait, is Sam still here?

I don't know. We don't have Sam's video, so it's possible that.

Yeah. Listeners, in case you didn't know this, every time we record with Sam, we're looking at, like, a black box on the screen where the other two of.

Usually it's like a picture. It's like a. It's a shot of the bed where we can look at the cats. At least this time. It's a black box.

Oh, yeah. Sometimes the camera's not on and it's just a black box, but that does make it hard to tell when Sam's audio randomly cuts out, whether Sam is still present or not. Well, okay, I could try to finish explaining. So, yeah, we talked about, like, making the beginning less info dumpy, and, like, having Simmons come up more, because what Interiority pointed out and was absolutely correct, even though he was doing a bit, was that, like, it's not about Simmons enough in the. In the beginning. Like, the whole driving force of the journey that AZ and West are going on is trying to rescue Simmons, who's, like, stranded at the edge of the universe in this ship that's drifting. And Interiority was very funny. He was like, well, okay, so first of all, you need to change the name of this show. It needs to be like, Simmons and Azen west are there, I guess. And then also, it just needs to be about Simmons the entire time. Like, the first seven episodes shouldn't even have as in west in them. It should just be about Simmons. And Sam was like. Like, like, squawking and hooting and hollering, losing his mind. Like, wait, you're so fucking right. Like, we don't talk about Simmons. Yeah, so that seems to have unstuck Sam from the problems.

Yeah, that does help. And then also, if you want to keep things fresh while giving information, the way to do it, at least one possible way to do it, is to be commenting on the information. So it's not just that you're telling about that Simmons is off flying through space. But then if you introduce new information in the way that the characters feel about it and have them talking about it and giving additional context that way, then it serves both purposes of informing the audience, oh, this is what happened. But then also it gives new information of, here's how the characters feel about it.

Well, yeah, and we discussed with Interiority also having there be new messages from Simmons periodically. Not every episode, probably, but Simmons is in, like, cryostasis a lot of the time at this point, trying to conserve resources and, you know, keep himself safe out there. And so, like, we were talking about him possibly, like, popping out of cryo every once and again to, like, you know, check the systems and make sure there aren't any giant holes in the ship or, like, horrible mushroom aliens that he didn't notice last time. And he can, like, send messages while he's not in cryo that then take a while to reach us, but then we get to react to New Simmons content also.

Yeah, yeah. And everybody likes new Simmons.

Everybody is ravenous for new Simmons content.

We are. We are rattling the bars of arcades.

Yeah.

Like, all of the Simmons stands out here, which contextually, in unspeakable distance is. Everyone in the galaxy is so invested in how Simmons is doing.

Oh, this is not a serious suggestion, but a fun, like, ARG style additional context thing would be. It would be fun to have a bunch of, like, fake. Fake social media accounts of people like Simmons stanning, like, talking about how much they. And, like, with fan theories and, like.

Shipping wars of Simmons and Wes, like, little sick figures kissing each other. That would be so cute.

That would be funny.

With all of our spare extra time we have outside of already making the audio drama.

I know, right? Where it's like, well, I mean, like, scope creep is real. Like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if.

And it's like, yeah, it would be cool if. But, like, with whomst's extra time.

Yeah, well, and just, like, energy and, like, effort also, like, yeah, you can't, like, scatter your attention that way. There we go.

We can stitch them together in post.

Do we know where we left off?

Jack and I continue to talk about what you guys covered in your conversation with Mike with interiority. Excellent. Basically, that he unlocked your third eye by talking about that he needs to be in the podcast more. And you were like, yes, that's right. You do need to be in the podcast more.

You're so right, bestie. You're so right.

Yeah, the greatest. Well, I mean, not the greatest. Maybe the greatest thing about Interiority is that when he starts to. He'll. He'll always start sounding like he's very.

Yeah. Like he's very dry, curious.

This is the actual, real thing that he's talking about. And then you'll realize kind of slowly, and then it'll click that he's totally fine.

Yeah, no, he's doing a bit. He was doing a bit from the beginning, but he sounded so sincere about it that you were taking him seriously for, like, half of the bit. Yeah, it's so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Did I cut? Did I. I didn't give an update. Okay.

Yeah, I want your update now.

So when last we left, Jack was helping me fix my problems with episode.

Six, I was unlocking your third eye in the middle of a different podcast.

Except that, like, that, like, I have since then thrown out everything we talked about.

Perfect.

Yeah. Because, yeah, I've done another one of those. Run really hard, end up back where you started. Or like, oh, the cats cat tv.

Oh, my God, I'm so happy there, listeners. We're getting perfect, perfectly framed cat TV of two cats boxing on Sam's bed in the background. Oh, my God. They know they're being observed.

Yeah, they're like, thank you. Um, yeah, so, yeah, I did one of those. In fact, the thing I wanted to talk, because I always try to bring. Not always, but sometimes I try to bring a topic for us for these things. And I was. I was thinking about this all for the last two weeks of, like, the dilemma of powering through versus backing up and reevaluating. Because, like, you, when you're struggling with a. With any kind of problem, this is not just writing. This is like, fucking life, right? Where, like, something will break or you're trying to fix your thing or whatever, you know, do something at your job. And, like, the thing that I always find myself wondering about is like, okay, do I need to just, like, power through and fix this issue that I have been working on? Like, I settled on a course of action. I just need to, like, see it through the end, or do I need to, like, stand back and then, like, say, is this the right course of action at all? Right? Because, like, sometimes the answer, the real thing is that, like, you've been, you know, sunk, cost fallacy ing your way down an entire pathway that wasn't the right way to go the whole time. And so you really do need to step back and be like, am I doing this right? If the solution works, will I actually be happy? Blah, blah, you know, all that stuff. But if you do that too often, you can talk yourself out of doing anything at all. You'll spend all of your time, like, backing up and, like, you know, thinking, oh, am I still doing the right. Is this course of action really true? And you never really commit, and you have to commit in order to ever finish anything. And so that was the problem. That was the space I have been in with this, with the flashback. What I've been thinking of the flashback episode, the backstory episode, the one that's about the main character, the protagonists, like, who he is and where he comes from and what his motivation is. And I had this course of action set in my head since the beginning, and it wasn't working. And I couldn't figure out if it wasn't working because I was just, like, not committed to it enough and not, like, doing the thing. And, you know, because sometimes you, like, you know, you just like, I'll just make it. I'll just write it and then when you write it, you're like, oh, yeah, that works. That's good. I'm glad I did that. I came to the conclusion last night that no, I had put this thing in here for bad reasons.

And with the whole backstory episode or.

Just the structure, specifically the motivation?

Okay, yeah.

The thing that was killing me was I had inherit because I've been quit pretty open that, like, the way I started this story was to take lucky number seven. I'm going to do a lucky number seven, and then I'm just going to start from the stat structure forward and then start mutating off of it. It is not that anymore, but that's the starting point. I do that, I think, fairly frequently. Just start with a different story and then just like, see where it goes from there.

If I'm going to do Grown Past Its Origins at this point and in.

That the structure is like, the motivation is a revenge for the killing of this guy's family. And so me being the Found Family guy was like, well, I'll just do. I'll do Killing of a Found Family. Fine. This is perfect.

Fine.

Perfectly on brand. And it has not been working. I've been noodling away at that basic idea for a long time, and certain parts of it have never sat right. And so last, like, literally, like, I was sitting in my car and had to like, pop into the like, it takes a wolf den and be like, okay, I just need to toss all this out. Like, this is wrong. I inherited this idea from the original property and it just doesn't work. This is about him. He is doing this motivation for himself. And there are some things I get to carry over with that. But basically, I've been spinning my wheels for the last. Turns out that means is that I've been spinning my wheels this whole time, and I'm like kind of back to square one. So that's where I'm at.

Well, I saw the mount the like, massive amount of writing and it takes a wolf. And I went in there and I was like, okay, here we go. I got my drink, I got my.

Got my popcorn. I got my.

Yeah, yeah, I'm ready to do it. And then I got a couple paragraphs in and I was like, I don't have the brain, actually.

That's fine. Yeah, yeah. It's not for you guys. I mean, like, I like that there are people who can read it, but, like, it's for me. Like, I.

Right, right, right.

It's just like. It's just like open br. Pour contents Into Discord Channel.

It seems like that I like to try and get that Strat has been useful for you in terms of keeping track of the trail of your. The meandering trail of your thoughts as you work on this project.

Yeah, well, and it. And it. There really is something to be. I think I've said this elsewhere in other. In other streams or when we're talking about it, where, like, the fact that somebody else reads it means it's equivalent to like, saying it. It's. It gives it much more of a sounding board effect, even in my brain, even when, like, I am just sitting there alone and y' aren't actually even responding because you haven't read it yet. But knowing that you guys are. Could be reading or might be reading in the future makes me of being observed. Yeah, it like, makes me, like, commit a little bit more to it, to really think it through to explain it more. And that helps me, like, immensely to think it through. So it's been super useful. But yeah, it's so like. Yeah, so that's my. I guess that. That's my update, which is like the. I worked for two weeks and really I've been working for longer than that on it. Now I've just tossed it back and I'm like, back to. Back to the blank page, which is both daunting and also strangely cathartic because there's freedom in the blank page that I think. I don't know why. Okay, so would you prefer to talk about that dilemma of moving forward or committing or reevaluating or you guys want to more interested in like, talking about the blank page?

I want to talk about your first thing. However, I have a quick question, which is are you still intending to attempt that structure of having those like, journal entries or letters or diaries or whatever from 21 at the beginning of the other episodes or the flashback episode?

I. Well, I'm not. I'm not committed to anything at this point. I literally am back to like, reevaluating. Like, I know that there will be a point where we have to learn this character's story, but I. And I'm like, I'm at the basic building blocks of like, okay, what's the plot that I'm trying to explain at least? And then how. Then I. Then I'll get to. How do I best explain?

Yeah, then it'll be like, what's the best way to convey that information to the audience?

Yeah, that's the next step because, like, I. I got to know what actually is in there first. And, like, it's a question of, like. You know, I just read Starship Troopers twice for. Yeah. Back to back. And so it's like. Because I really could. There's. There's a really good argument for basically doing a first half of Starship Troopers. Just do that. You know, like, do that.

That worked great.

Just do that, basically, yeah. Like, just kind of wholesale borrow a lot of that stuff and then skin it with werewolves instead of mobile infantry. Um, but I don't know if I need to. I need to make sure that that actually is the correct. I feel like I've got a good idea now, which is that, like, the motivation's not. He's. He's not mad. I mean, he is mad about his dead friends, but, like, not in the sense of, like, they were deliberately killed. It's just like. He's just mad that, like, he was made into the salt, made into a werewolf, made into a soldier, and sent off to die. Like, that's a good enough motivation. And he's. You know, I think I can work with that. So I got to figure out from there where I'm going.

Okay. Anyway, yeah, let's talk about powering through versus backing up, reevaluating.

So, yeah, like, this is. This is the place I find myself in, so I would love to hear Yalls thoughts about, like, do you. Do you vibe with that idea of, like, wondering to yourself at any particular moment, or do you feel your. Do you feel like that's easier for y'all than it sounds? Like it's very. It's, like, my biggest problem in the world. So, like, it's probably not as bad for you guys as it's for me, but, like, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I. I do sometimes struggle with that a bit, but I am very much of the. Write everything, all the time, everything you're thinking, because I have an incredible word output, and most of it is complete garbage. But I feel like if I get everything that's in my head out onto the page, it's out there, and then I can choose what I want. And I don't. I do not have a. Like, a. But if I write all this down, it's wrong. Then I have to get rid of it or whatever. I'm like, no, I'm gonna write 80,000 words, and I'm gonna keep 30,000 of it, and the rest of it's gonna go away, and then it's out of my brain, and it's not clogging up anything. And I know that I've chosen the best course of all the ideas that I had, I've written. I've written, I think five at this point, full novels and somebody else has read them. And all of them range between like the 95k and like the 150k. 150,000k. Sorry. Because I'm a fantasy writer mostly and. But like my writers group has read probably like millions of words. I just read everything. Because if I were to sit back and be like, ooh, I don't know if this is going to work. And if I write this and it doesn't work, I will get so bogged down in that and I will never write anything. Like, I go straight to not writing anything if I start second guessing myself. So I just.

I just write it just right. It sounds like the approach you take is to commit first, but not like to a deliberate path, at least within creative. You're just like, I'm going to commit all of. I'm going to commit to everything. I'm going to do all of the ideas and then you do the evaluate and reapproach idea at the end. Or. Yeah.

Yes. Because I'm a true. I'm a true pantser. Like the most pantsary pantser you can possibly be. And I always. It doesn't matter. Even if I have a pretty good idea, like a skeleton of a. I will always have massive rewrites and edits and things after it's all written anyway. So it's like, whatever. If I get. Again, if I get everything out, then I know that the best thing is out somewhere.

Okay, interesting. So not how I write, like the.

So not how a lot of people write.

I mean. No, I know, I know there's lots and lots of people who do like, revision and revision or. It's really a refinement process. I just tend to do all of my refining ahead of time where, like, I spend weeks and weeks and weeks thinking about an idea or struggling with it and then like a small secret. Like almost every single breathing space episode is draft one for me. Like, I kind of just write that shit and I.

Because it was already like worked through in your brain.

Yeah.

Before you put it on the paper.

I tend. Yeah, I tend not. I mean, like, there will be. There's edits, but not like, like with. With few exceptions, once I get going on a script, they get. They fall out of my head and they're just done. And I don't typically have to go in and do much tweaking, except for.

The ones that you have to rewrite like, eight times. Because you keep being like, wait, this is still not the story I'm trying to tell somehow.

Yeah, exactly. So, like, what happens with me is. Is that, like. Yeah, it's. It's the commit versus, like, I've committed to it, to have an approach. And then I get a couple thousand words in and I just have to go back to the blank page and start over. Because I can't. Like, I can't. Yeah. Like, I can't just, like, keep going if it's not right. I gotta go back and start. Like, I could go back and, like, take it from step one again. Um, Jack, how do you feel about this, man?

I feel like it kind of depends on what it is that I'm writing. Because, like, writing for audio drama.

Yeah.

I kind of find that I don't end up doing the, like, dump everything in my head onto the paper. I more like, sort of crafted as I go along. And I do.

Do.

I think I do, like, think ahead about, like, where I'm going before I put things on the paper. And I kind of, like, block out very roughly, like, beats I know I want to hit, and then I have to go through and meet my buoys. I think me and Scott have talked about this before of, like, using, like, little sort of story beat checkpoints that you're hopping from one to the next and trying to hit in order. And I think that approach prevents me from having to go off in a billion other directions and write all this other stuff that may not make it into the episode. Sometimes there are. I cut things for mostly length reasons, but it's a lot of, like, knowing where my little buoys are and just going through and hitting them. And I haven't. I've been lucky to not have to, like, go through and change my buoys that often. Writing for audio drama, which could certainly happen if I were, like, writing the episode and then me or someone else reading it realized, hey, this plot point doesn't make sense or this thing isn't working. Like, then you would have to go back and, you know, change or fix something. But I've been lucky in that I haven't really had to do a lot of that. It's just been like, here are my. My things I want to hit, and I just go through and hit them. But I feel like writing prose is different because that I really do just, like, throw everything on the paper and not even in chronological order. Like, I will just have a big document and I will, you know, hit the enter key three times and Just start a new section that doesn't connect to the section before it. I will, like, scroll way ahead to the bottom of the document and add things and then go slot them in later. Like, that, for me, is a way different process of just, like, dumping everything in my brain onto the paper. So I think I do it both.

Depending on the.

Depending on the circumstances.

Yeah. So, like, and I think I'm coming. As we've been talking, I'm coming back to an idea that I think we've talked about previously about, like, the two cycles where you've got creation versus editing, where it's like creation versus revision. And the problem. This is probably an expression of that same problem where it's like, me when I'm thinking, dude, should I be stepping back and reevaluating it? That's part of the editor brain, right? That's the brain going, I am now evaluating these ideas rather than just doing.

Producing them and slapping them onto the paper.

And it is. I mean, like, on the. In the one sense, if your editor brain is like, needling at you, being like, this doesn't seem right. This doesn't seem right. This doesn't seem right. Then, like, I mean, like, you gotta listen to your own internal monologue. But, like, and, like. And judge, you know, trust your own judgment. But like, that also explains why it feels so hard to even commit to a path if, like, I know something's wrong with it. Because, like, it editor, when you. My theory is that when you engage revisionist brain, editor brain, the one that's, like, evaluating the ideas, then, like, the creative side of it becomes just infinitely harder because it's so hard to, like, generate new ideas if there's. If you. If your brain is also being like, no, that sucks, let's shut it down. No, that's not going to work. Like, you, like, when Sam's talking about just writing and writing and writing and writing and writing, and then having all of this stuff on the paper and being able to cull from that. That seems like the version where you're just like, okay, just go. Let's just do everything. I don't care if it's good. I don't care if it works. I don't care if it's right. Let's just do it. Let's make it.

Yeah, I don't even care if it's getting used or not. A lot of it won't be. But at least now you have this pile of pieces that you can assemble later.

Exactly. Interesting. And so Sam, I want to peer into Your head a little bit.

I know. I want to dissect you a little bit here. This is so interesting.

So. Because you talk about, like, you just write and write and write to the point where, like, you don't. You're. You said you're a pantser, right? You're like, you're. Which. Yeah, it sounds like. Yeah, like, I'm not even sure that that's what it sounds like. Pantser doesn't even sound the Right. You almost like, what's I'm trying to think about, like. Because you're finding the story afterwards, really? Right in the edit.

Is that right in the edit kind?

Yeah, kind of. Because it's like I've always. I've always thought of. I thought of it, and this is not a very good analogy, but, like, this works in my head when. When a. Not. Not a person who works with clay, but a person who chips away at stone.

Yeah.

Because I create. I create the stone. Like, I just make the stone and then.

Yeah, you gotta have. You gotta make before you can.

And then I have to go back and I have to chip out what the story is like on the inside. And I just. I always get bogged down if I think too much before I do something. And I always have an idea of where I want the story to go. Obviously, like, I have. Here's my idea and my basic structure for, like, the world. And here's the inciting incident, and then here's, like, a couple scenes that I think would be really cool. And I'm going to stick to those, like, the buoys, but, like, there's only, like, two, and it's a vast, vast version. So just as long as we get to those buoys at some point, it's fine. What I think is going to be really interesting for me to learn about myself as a writer. I have, at this point written exactly one podcast episode that has come to fruition, only ever one. And it was very short and it was very.

I got to be in it. It was a delight.

Yes, Jack was in it. It was very fun and it was quite easy, actually, because I wasn't taking it very seriously. And not. Not in a.

Way.

I really think that not taking it seriously is actually super important to, like, I definitely am very much feeling lately the, like, taking it seriously. Being a hampering, like, the fact that, like, I. That, like, I care about this a lot is, like, putting a bunch of pressure on me. So, like, I didn't want to pass that by without comment, but. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, that and that is. And that is one of the things that I've learned to do when I'm writing, like, long form is I just can't care about this stuff right now. But what's going to be very interesting is when I actually start to, for real write the Azen west episodes, because I'm going to have to, like, retrain my brain to write almost. It's not technically short form because it's a overarching story through the whole thing, but I'm gonna have to, like, write an episode episodic. I don't get to go. Yeah, I don't get to go. Thousands and thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of words for. For every single, like, I guess, story beat would be. Or episode, whatever. And so I'm going to have to take my novel brain and really all I've ever done is really, really, really long fan fiction, extremely long fan fiction or novels, and then this one podcast episode and then like one short story. So I'm really gonna have to retrain my brain because it's not going to. It's gonna. It's really not gonna be conducive to my mental health if I'm just writing forever for each episode.

Do you feel like.

And then also it won't be released until like, 2029 or something? Yeah.

So, yeah, I'll be like 8 years old.

Do you feel like there's so. So to you. It feels like you'd have to write a million words to get. Previously, you're. You're. I'm trying to formulate my thoughts. Previously, you're like, okay, I'm gonna write a million words. I'm gonna pare that down to 150,000. Right? Yeah, it wouldn't. It seem to me. It seems to me like you should be able to do something like, okay, I'm gonna write 50,000 words to trim it to 5. 5,000. I mean, does that. Or are you worried that you're still going to have to do the million.

The million words has to be there.

It'll definitely scale because I know in the back of my mind how much of a story is going to fit into each episode. So at least there's that. Like, I'm going to need this many words for the. And again, I cannot think of episodes in word count. I do not understand how they do that. That is insane to me. So basically every episode for me in my brain is story beats. And so it's going to be this beat, this beat, this beat, this beat. And that's the end and if it takes 50 to 60, 70,000 words to write each of those, it's not the end of the world. I write very, very fast. So. And again, if I just get all the garbage out of my head, I'll grab that 2, 3, 5,000 words that are good, and I'll be like, yes, okay, now this is what I'm going to work with. And then I'll. And then I will start the editing.

Well, here's. Okay, so this is interesting. When you're writing a novel that's not divided up into whatever 12 podcast episodes, you can kind of do the, like, I have two buoys and there's also this whole ocean here approach. But, like, because each of these episodes of this podcast are one single episode, and we know we're going to have, like, a number of beats to hit within each episode, you automatically have 12 times as many buoys as you normally would, I feel like. So that should help guide the path a bit more than just having to dump the entire ocean onto the paper. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Because you're not discovering.

Definitely going to help. Yeah, it's definitely going to help. And with. Also with this. With specifically this podcasting thing having extremely structured, like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this has been actually quite helpful because, again, when I do a novel, I have like two or three beats, and I, you know, sort of work around them, blah, blah, blah. But if I have. But if I have, like 10, if I have 10 beats that I have to work around, that's gonna. It's gonna narrow down so much of, like, what I want to do anyway. And so my brain isn't gonna be like, oh, but we could do this. Oh, but we could do this. Every five seconds it's gonna be like, so we're gonna do this, and then we gotta get to this next one pretty quick. Oh, and then we gotta do this. And I'll have way more focused, like, I guess, direction. So I don't think that I'm actually going to be writing that much more, but, you know, I haven't really started yet.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not. I'm definitely not trying to. Trying to. Because, like, we don't know how the writing for AZZ and West is gonna go until you guys do it. Yeah. So we can't make that many predictions. I'm curious, when you are in the just write and write and write mode, do you. God, this is such a stupid question. How do you keep Editor brain out of it. Does that just happen for you? Or is there something. Do you have any.

A lot of people have asked me this, and if you ask any pantser or anybody that just does the free writing, like I do that, it. It just isn't there. Like, the editor brain does not exist.

Out of the room. Absent. Not. I do not see it. I look away.

So it feels natural to you to just like, just go, yes. Okay. Interesting.

Yes.

Not helping.

Maybe if we claunch Scott on the head with a cartoon hammer and we're like, editor brain, shut the fuck up. Just let him cook.

Yeah. No, like, they're the. For context. I stopped drinking in 2019, and I do not miss that at all. Except one drink in is a great place to write for me. It was used to be a great place to write for me. So, like, because it occupies that one part of my brain enough that I was able to do the generation easier, which is. I mean, that's just a. That being said, I am quite certain that that's not the kind of thing you need to rely on. There are other ways to get your brain to that space. I haven't figured it out at the moment, and I'm still looking for ways to just be like, let's go. The thing I keep telling myself, one of the tricks that I have that I use continuously is trying intentionally to write the worst version of something, which.

Like, is write it bad first.

Yeah. But, like, the thing is that when you tell yourself, I'm going to write the. I'm going to. What's the worst possible version of this line? What's the worst possible version? You, because you take all of the pressure off you, you end up doing things that you then find are good. Like, you just, like, can't help. Or at least I can't. Like, even when I am trying hard not to do the right version of it, that ends up creating good, good ideas and good lines and, like, because.

You'Ve loosened yourself, because you're loose.

But so it's. It's a. It's a trick and it's like, it's helpful, but, like, there's got to be other ways to do that, you know, and there. And I'm in a way to, like, you know, I want to. If I could. If I could tap into the Zen brain of the. Of the pantser and be like, okay, let's just turn. Like, turn on the flow. Let's go. I would love. I'm looking for places to do that.

Obviously, I talked about zero draft on here yet.

I think we've mentioned it a few times, but if you want to go into more into depth, I'm happy to hear.

Briefly go into it. Okay. So at least when I write for audio drama, I do a thing called a zero draft, which basically means the ugliest version that you don't intend anyone else to see, and it's like, slap it down on the paper, like, just hit those beats. Don't worry about making it sound good. Don't worry about, like, character voices being, like, true to the character. Just, like, whack it all down and you'll fix it later. Yeah, well, I always tell myself that that's what I'm doing, but then by the end, I make just the barest tweaks, and it's good to show to somebody, like, it's always a better draft than I sort of intended it to be. But because I told myself no one's going to see this, it doesn't matter if it doesn't, like, all match up. It does free your brain a little bit to, like, do its work without grinding against itself in the way that's like, oh, my God, someone's going to see this. So it has to be right. Like, no, it doesn't just down and.

You know, in true therapy mode, part of the. Part of the thing that's killing me is that I. There are things in here that I feel like I want to say I hate. I hate this. Like, there's. There's points of view, ideas that, like, because it feels so pretentious, be like, I have a. I have a point of view, but I do. And. Oh, we've lost Sam again. And we didn't even notice.

Oh, my God. Sam. No.

No.

Okay. But, yeah, the art. The auteur brain.

Yeah, well, like, the. The. This is important brain. Right? Like, it's the thing where you're, like, starting to say, like.

Sometimes a podcast is three different Riverside recordings stitched together.

Now Sam's going to bow out, so we're just going to. We're going to go from here, and we'll close.

Okay.

The part of my brain that sucks. Not sucks, but the part of my brain that. That's so. That's such a. Yeah, but, like, there's a part of my brain that's like, you can't. That feels the incompatibility between trying to be serious and say serious things and, like, the ability to just, like, be stupid and, like, do the fun genre.

Stuff, you know, Play and have fun.

Yeah, to play and have fun. But, like, creation is play. Like, writing is a playful thing that you have to be, like, messing around with and having fun, and you'll discover the important things in there. And I think. But, like, so it's like this. These two parts. And I find myself in the conflict in the middle at the moment, which is. Yeah. That it's one of the reasons I've been. That things have been going slowly, I guess, is because I, like, I keep wanting this to be good. I like. And that sucks. You can't make. You can't, like, you can't will something into being good. You have to just do it, and then it may turn out to be good.

Yeah, I think it will turn out good. And like, I think that because you have, like. Well, even if you don't even know what the specific things are that you want to say yet, but, you know, you want to say, like, make meaningful, salient points.

Yeah.

About, you know, society or gender or whatever in this thing that you're making. It is. It's giving you that pressure of like, oh, my God. Well, I can't just write it bad, because then it's bad. And I want to, like, say things that make sense and be good because.

I want people to listen to me, but I don't. But that means it needs to be worth listening to, which is not.

Yeah, that probably is hanging you up at this point, because what would be really helpful is if you could be like, it's fine if it sucks and doesn't make any salient points, and I'm just gonna, like, schlock around and have a good time with these horny werewolves.

Yeah.

And then something good will probably spring forth out of that, you know?

Yeah, I need to. Yeah. How do I convince my. Like, how do you convince yourself to be. To be free and playful and not care. God, like, this is. I need to get. Need to go back to studying Buddhism because, like, the. The, you know, attachment leads to suffering is like the fucking watch word of my goddamn life. And it. And, you know, it's the thing that so many people get hung up on. And I. And I am missing, like, there are ways in which I have been able to internalize some of those lessons. And this is one of the ways in which I have never been able to, like, I can't not take myself.

Seriously sometimes I think. Okay, so do you remember, like, kind of early on in this process for you, Y. You were like, I need to go write some stupid coffee shop a you or something. I need to just play around more with These characters. I think, like, at the time, it was for the reason of getting to know the characters better.

Yeah.

But at this point in the process, it might be worth revisiting that exercise as more of a. Let's just loosen up a little bit and generate some stuff that's definitely not going into the episodes, but that's going to, like, sort of. It's like shaking your wrists out before you draw. Like, just.

Yeah.

You know, loosening yourself a little.

And that's. And it's possible. I certainly was not able to do it unseriously last time.

Well, it got serious, right? Like.

Yeah, exactly.

And then it got.

Yeah. And it, like, turned into a whole thing. And I see, like. But, like, yeah, the. The. Yeah. Tapping in. There's a. There's a whole concept called the. We got. We got a. Let's talk about flow state in the future, because this is what we're aiming at. But I got to go back to work because this is. Less is my lunch break, and we're already going, so. All right, Jack, do you want to set a goal for the next two weeks?

I'll talk to Sam about it, but I suspect my goal is wait for a story skeleton for the first two episodes to land in my lap so that I can, like, help Sam, you know, set our buoys basically before two weeks from now.

Okay. I am deliberately not setting myself a goal because.

Good for you. Chill and relax.

No, no, no, I'm not going to chill. I'm not. I'm constitutionally incapable of chilling or relaxing at the moment.

Scott's like, I will not. You can't make me.

I just don't know in what direction I'm going, so I can't aim at a target, and that should be okay, but I am definitely not chilling.

I will not be chill, but I will not set goals.

No, I'm going to be. I'm going to be vibrating furiously in a single location, and then two weeks will pass, and I will still be here, but, like, I will have worn a hole in my chair.

Okay, well, we'll note the shape of the hole in your chair next week.

We'll see what has happened. All right. In that case, we will see the audience in two weeks. And bye. Bye.

Bye.

Thank you for joining us for behind the Locked Doors, a library of cursed knowledge production podcast thing. I don't know if you are interested in any of these projects. You can head over to Library Horse, which will eventually redirect to a webpage once I make it. You know, if you want to support the podcast. We do have a Patreon. It's patreon.com cursedknowledge See y'all next week. No, wait. See y'all in two weeks.